Classic SE upgrade w/Teflon caps

[Mcbrion]

I posted in the wrong forum originally. Sorry, guys.


Can someone comment on their experience on the burn-in time with the Teflon capacitors? I've just received my preamp back recently, and thought -- Teflon being what it is -- that the capacitors would take at least 200 hours for full burn-in. Called CJ, who said they burned them in 40 hours at the factory and they really had no "take" on the burn-in time, as some heard changes over time and some people did not.
Is it not traditional (or, "common wisdom") that Teflon takes a while to break in? More so than other kinds of capacitors (except Mundorfs)?

[rthomeint]

The teflon caps go thru swings of sound good one day then hazy and foggy the next I've heard the changes minute to minute in some cases. The big swings dimmish and you put more hours on the unit then I say around the 300 hour mark the biggest changes are done in its a case of more refinement. When I got my HD3 I had put 200 hours on it and thought I was done and then it took a step back I then put another 200 hours of hard burn in and that took care of it.

[Mcbrion]

I don't know how I missed this, but last night I realized that the Classic SE has a fuse tray right below the IEC inlet. (I didn't even know it HAD a fuse!)

I've been finding the sound wonderful, but lacking a bit of body in the bass range thru lower midrange. Not in the same way as being "thin," but more in the way of being a baritone in contrast to a bass singer. Solid without being rooted-to-the-floor Solid.

That will change Monday, when the Synergistic Research fuse arrives. I've retro-fitted all my components with the Synergistic fuses. (I've also got the Hi Fi Supremes, and the AMRs. Haven't tried Furutech yet). But in every application, the Synergistics seem to make the sound more "solid" as in an Away Team on Star Trek materializing on a planet's surface: first, they're ghostly, then semi-solid, then completely solid. The Synergistics tend to solidify instruments, making them more visible, more "right THERE" focused before your eyes, and at the same time, less edge (not as in transient edges) but the grit on the leading transient edge.
I'm betting this little modification will push the Classic's performance even higher than it is. I'll know in 3 days!

[Ian Millar]

The capacitors will make no difference to the sound and the fuses even less. These are marketing cons. The differences that you hear are in your own head and mine. I admitted it and proved it insofar as speaker cables are concerned anyway here: http://ianamillar.com/blog/speaker-cable/

How could you not know that your component has a fuse? It must, else it would either not work or be dangerous. If you don't know that your equipment needs a fuse, how can you postulate that a Synergistic Research fuse would be so great? It is not. You are being ripped off.

There is no bedding-in for electronic components other than valves and speaker drivers. You get used to the sound. YOU bed in - not the equipment. I am sorry, but it is absolutely absurd to suggest that capacators "go through swings" in sound quality. How do you suppose that what you hear is attributed to the caps in a sytem that has so much more than just caps? It's like listening to people swear that they can hear the "tone" of a potentiometer. It is delusion.

Teflon is an inferior dielectric compared to polypropylene so what makes you suppose a PTFE capacitor would sound any better?

Science please!

[rthomeint]

The capacitors will make no difference to the sound and the fuses even less. These are marketing cons. The differences that you hear are in your own head and mine. I admitted it and proved it insofar as speaker cables are concerned anyway here: http://ianamillar.com/blog/speaker-cable/

How could you not know that your component has a fuse? It must, else it would either not work or be dangerous. If you don't know that your equipment needs a fuse, how can you postulate that a Synergistic Research fuse would be so great? It is not. You are being ripped off.

There is no bedding-in for electronic components other than valves and speaker drivers. You get used to the sound. YOU bed in - not the equipment. I am sorry, but it is absolutely absurd to suggest that capacators "go through swings" in sound quality. How do you suppose that what you hear is attributed to the caps in a sytem that has so much more than just caps? It's like listening to people swear that they can hear the "tone" of a potentiometer. It is delusion.

Teflon is an inferior dielectric compared to polypropylene so what makes you suppose a PTFE capacitor would sound any better?

Science please!

Last time I checked science is not the one listening to music. I have had enough equipment over the last 30 years to know that equipment requires burnin to sound it's best. I also tried fuses and have heard a difference. I also know cables make a difference. Ypu can think want you want but don't tell me what I hear.

[Ian Millar]

I have been in audio clubs where people swore they could hear differences that were nothing more than a volume mismatch brought about by different gain levels between the selected components. Only double blind ABX tests with normalised levels can prove them wrong at which point they run for the hills. Always. If people choose to ignore science that's their prerogative. If they choose to believe that they can hear what they cannot, that is their prerogative as well. Choose what you like. Science does listen to music and it does so through instrumentation that is far more accurate than human hearing, is statisticlly repeatable and therefore verifiable. It has no imagination and does not change its readings for no apparent reason. Has your equipment included an oscilloscope, a spectrum analiser, a calibrated measurement microphone and impulse response measurement software, or just brand name audio gear and your ears?

Please explain your statement about burn-in with an example, but without resorting to what you think you hear - instead with what can be demonstrated repeatably with instrumentation.

[admin]

Ian,
I have to admit that I don't have an "oscilloscope, a spectrum analyzer, etc" measurements. Also, it may be just in my head. However, don't you think that some components can change there sound over time?

For example, vacuum tubes with prolonged use will change. I know this because I have had tubes go bad and it wasn't one second to the next, but rather they lost clarity, had increased noise over many months. When I switched tubes, the sound it was night and day (as in an audible and quite pronounced hiss was gone). Of course that was a tube that went bad over time, but maybe the sound that we hear as "harsh to warm to bad" is simply the natural life cycle of these components.

Or people speak of speaker burn in as well. I could see how the physical flexing of the drivers will change it's properties. Kind of like wearing a new shoe, it certainly feels different after wearing for week as the rigidness of the plastic and rubber of the shoe change with repeated bending. I think the physical components of the drivers also would go through a similar change which would influence the sound you hear.

I can't really explain burn in for interconnect cables (and I have never heard this on my system) but I wonder if the simple heating and cooling that electronic components go through change their properties (even if means degrading their function) that may be responsible for the phenomena that people report.

[rthomeint]

I have been in audio clubs where people swore they could hear differences that were nothing more than a volume mismatch brought about by different gain levels between the selected components. Only double blind ABX tests with normalised levels can prove them wrong at which point they run for the hills. Always. If people choose to ignore science that's their prerogative. If they choose to believe that they can hear what they cannot, that is their prerogative as well. Choose what you like. Science does listen to music and it does so through instrumentation that is far more accurate than human hearing, is statisticlly repeatable and therefore verifiable. It has no imagination and does not change its readings for no apparent reason. Has your equipment included an oscilloscope, a spectrum analiser, a calibrated measurement microphone and impulse response measurement software, or just brand name audio gear and your ears?

Please explain your statement about burn-in with an example, but without resorting to what you think you hear - instead with what can be demonstrated repeatably with instrumentation.

You have your opinion and I have mine and I am not going waste my time trying to convince you otherwise. One more thing I could careless about double blind testing and measurements. I have one criterion about equipment - does it make recorded music sound better to me, which is all that counts.

[Ray]

You have your opinion and I have mine and I am not going waste my time trying to convince you otherwise. One more thing I could careless about double blind testing and measurements. I have one criterion about equipment - does it make recorded music sound better to me, which is all that counts.

We all know where these subjective vs objective discussions end up, heck, didn't this all start back with J Gordon Holt vs Julian Hirsch?
20+ years later and the "discussion" continues.

PS, I've seen each and every argument and counter-argument possible. it's been 10+ years since anyone on either side has stated anything new.

'what's that overused expression regarding insanity and doing the same thing over and over ?.... and in this case over and over and over and over.

carry on, pardon the interruption!

[Ian Millar]

Dear admin. As per my previous post, valves and speaker drivers are excluded from what I say about burn-in. You are correct about valves (you say tubes - I am Australian so I say valves). Here is an interesting link: http://sound.westhost.com/madashell.htm#burnin. I know the author personally. He was at my house just last week and assisted me in repairing my Premier Eights.

Valves have a steep burn-in curve followed by a very long fairly flat zone followed by a steep burn-out. This is why you should never pay more for "platinum matched pairs" or "platinum matched quads". If they are matched at all, then they are matched in the steep part of the curve in their early life! Speaker drivers have suspension - a surround and a spider - which will soon free-up after a good pounding.

Capacitors, semiconductors and resistors will all fail if abused or incorrectly specified/mounted/thermally abused (like in some C-J gear), but in my most humble of opinions will not change the audio perception one iota after a very short period of use (minutes) within their SOA (safe operating area).

[hukkfinn]

The capacitors will make no difference to the sound and the fuses even less. These are marketing cons.
There is no bedding-in for electronic components other than valves and speaker drivers.

I would just like to submit my two cents, that the preceding amounts to a load of steaming incorrect information, in my humble view. Different types of capacitors do make clear sonic differences, and do go through break-in, especially Teflon capacitors, again, in my experience.

Cheers,
Hukk

[hukkfinn]

Can someone comment on their experience on the burn-in time with the Teflon capacitors? I've just received my preamp back recently, and thought -- Teflon being what it is -- that the capacitors would take at least 200 hours for full burn-in. Called CJ, who said they burned them in 40 hours at the factory and they really had no "take" on the burn-in time, as some heard changes over time and some people did not.
Is it not traditional (or, "common wisdom") that Teflon takes a while to break in? More so than other kinds of capacitors (except Mundorfs)?

I believe you are correct, it is common wisdom that Teflon caps take a while to break in, more so than other types. And, I believe the common wisdom is correct. 40 hours will not be enough, and you will still have gyrations in sound quality from day to day. After 100 hours the changes are less noticeable in my experience but people I respect have said MINIMUM 400 hours break-in on Teflon caps.

My question to you, sir: does the preamp sound better with the Teflon caps? That would be a very interesting piece of info for all of us in C-J land, as my recollection is that the Teflon upgrades are usually quite expensive.

Thanks,
Hukk

[antaresbluespirit]

Can someone comment on their experience on the burn-in time with the Teflon capacitors? I've just received my preamp back recently, and thought -- Teflon being what it is -- that the capacitors would take at least 200 hours for full burn-in. Called CJ, who said they burned them in 40 hours at the factory and they really had no "take" on the burn-in time, as some heard changes over time and some people did not.
Is it not traditional (or, "common wisdom") that Teflon takes a while to break in? More so than other kinds of capacitors (except Mundorfs)?

I believe you are correct, it is common wisdom that Teflon caps take a while to break in, more so than other types. And, I believe the common wisdom is correct. 40 hours will not be enough, and you will still have gyrations in sound quality from day to day. After 100 hours the changes are less noticeable in my experience but people I respect have said MINIMUM 400 hours break-in on Teflon caps.

My question to you, sir: does the preamp sound better with the Teflon caps? That would be a very interesting piece of info for all of us in C-J land, as my recollection is that the Teflon upgrades are usually quite expensive.
Thanks,
Hukk

Hi

you are right regarding the "sound improvement"expected when replacing the classic cap's by Teflon series,what kinf of subjective change in terms of "gain and loss"

it appears to be a sensitive debate for every one here, especially for the vintage CJ units owners...

regards

Raymond

[Ian Millar]

If you just paid for Teflon capacitors you are predisposed to believing that you can hear a difference. The difference "must" be an improvement and is "never" retrograde because such an admission would also be one of your own errors in judgement.

I have built active crossovers using PP caps as well as identical circuits using regular polyester. I match caps using a meter! They sound the same in all respects. The PPs just take up more PCB real estate. The only reason that people might use Teflon caps is that they have been marketed at them by people who know how to exploit the technically inept.

People are victims of marketing and it is a very sad indictment indeed that they choose to perpetuate it with no actual understanding and that they do it free of charge. The real marketers would be rubbing their hand together on the way to the bank!

I see a suggestion that I have expressed misinformation here. Please justify it with something other than anecdote. I have proper evidence in the form of measurements to justify everything that I say. I am an engineer and I have the equipment. I have also enjoyed a very active interest in audio for over 35 years. And by that I mean actually building - not just buying.

I too own a lot of vintage C-J gear and having built many amplifiers and repaired my C-J gear since its purchase, I can say in no uncertain terms that there is nothing whatsoever worth being proud of in its continued ownership. I can build better at a mere fraction of the expense and doing so is an education in itself. An education far beyond the foolish beliefs and myths bandied about by audiophiles and those who market drivel at them.

This continued question of Teflon capacitor burn-in is absurd. Any statement that it needs burning-in is clear admission of being unhappy with it. That would be because dollars were paid, but nothing audible was returned. It's a desperate wish that something will improve in time. It won't They will continue to perform the same.

One thing that would affect the sound would in a tuned circuit (such as where the cap is coupled with a resistor to set a certain frequency as in a crossover network, or used to set the LF roll-off at the input of a preamp) and where the value was out, or in a linear PSU for example where an electrolytic had excessive ESR in which case you might get a little more mains hum (that's a guess).

There is nothing exotic about expensive capacitors. In audio they attract the obsessive and compulsive and marketers exploit that big time.

400 hour burn-in for a capacitor is nonsense. The listener may become accustomed to something in that period, but nothing is burning-in.

Assuming substitution of equal value capacitors (say 100nF for 100nF), none of it would have the REAL effect of say turning a tone dial from 12 to 1 o'clock.

If you do actually hear a difference (as against imagining it) it might just be that they're +/-20% tolerance parts and you substituted one that measured say 120nF for one that measured 80nF in a specific circuit location. That has nothing to do with whether it was Teflon or oil and paper! You wouldn't know unless you measured them and I don't see too many people in here likely to own a capacitance meter let alone an oscilloscope and a function generator. I seriously doubt that most people likely to make such substitutions would even appreciate the purpose of each cap is in its particular circuit location. For example a cap in front of a volume pot might simply be there to block a DC offset so that the pot doesn't make "scratchy" sounds while being turned! There is nothing exotic that can help that.

PTFE will creep if a force is applied to it over a period of time and this is a known issue in Teflon seals. There is no such force in a capacitor so its geometry will not change. Just ask yourself what do you think is actually happening which might cause some property of the capacitor to change instead of believing something mystical. Is it the geometry? Is it a chemical condition? Is it affected by temperature? Well it's used in frying pans so probably not! Or is it just more ridiculous audophooey? I know where I stand and if you want to go on about it then go ahead.

The Classic SE should have been left alone. Move one speaker an inch if you want to cause a real and measurable difference.

I have nothing else to say on the subject, so I shall not participate any further in this ludicrous discussion.

[Ray]

This discussion has raged on for 20 plus years, but who's counting. One might think us audiophiles would rather listen to music, but one would be wrong.

If you think you can here a difference between ______________ (fill in the blank with fuses, wire, capacitors, resistors or whatever you want) ..go buy the pieces, pay whatever you want, and listen to music. There really is no purpose to be served by trying to convince other people what they think they can or cannot hear. How do I know this? Because I've seen this movie 10,000 times now or so, and the ending is the same, always.... I know, i must have a bad attitude.

[AudioDIY]

Different type of capacitor will yield diffent energy store and release time like how quickly they can change frequency or let AC signal passing through cleanly without any side effect like over shoot, ringing or ghosting. I believe that there is an audiable difference between the lowest and highest grade capacitor, but I absolutley doubt that you can hear a drastic audiable differences beteen a high quality Poly and a Teflon cap.

[kawika007]

OK, why waste time engaging with people who just can't hear so well? Most gear Junkies i've been around tend to be a bit less able to detect differences. Now, I'm a gear junkie myself, but i've always been able to hear the dif with cables, tubes, and yes circuit part types since i got my first tastes of listening & comparing 38 years ago. So....just be glad that you can hear the dif and sorry that the poor sod can't!