Breaking in a Premier 17LS

[pstrisik]

I have some hearing sensitivities that make my preferences atypical. Sometimes, what should be great improvements end up feeling irritating to me. For example, I've not successfully moved to the Pr17LS I recently acquired. While I can perceive some improvement in staging, it sounds thinner and slightly harsher in the upper mids. The previous owner, who bought it new, says it only has about 200 hours on it. Maybe I need to let it break in more before I judge.

So, I've set things up in the basement with some extra equipment. The 17LS is playing a CD that is in a repeating loop (yes, with speakers connected ). Given the idea of time on and time off, I'll run it during the day and turn it off at night. That will typically give about 14 hours on and 10 hours off. If my calculations are correct, this will mean five weeks to reach 500 hours, but will probably bring it back up after 200.

On another note, I have the Electro-Harmonix 6922EH tubes that came with it from the original owner. These are likely the original tubes if it is true that he only put 200 hours on it. Based on recommendations from another forum, I'm looking at ordering some NOS MATSUSHITA 7DJ8 from upscale audio. Others that were recommended were the Genalex Gold Lion 6922.

Input and experiences welcome!

[jeffreybehr]

I hope the speakers aren't connected to the '17!

Seriously now, you need merely to plug the '17's audio output into a poweramp or some sort of normal audio input. The poweramp need not be turned on.

[pstrisik]

I hope the speakers aren't connected to the '17!

Well, I tried, but I couldn't find the speaker terminals!

Seriously now, you need merely to plug the '17's audio output into a poweramp or some sort of normal audio input. The poweramp need not be turned on.

Well! I didn't know. I have the 17LS running into a small class D amp I have and a pair of monitor speakers. All set up now, so I'll let it run that way. May be placebo, but gives me more peace of mind. Funny how the mind works that way. I find myself wanting to vary the kind of music that is playing through it, too! Seems it shouldn't make a difference, but what the hey?

[admin]

I agree that it should be plugged into something (amp), but the amp or speakers don't really need to be running. If you have something else that your trying to burn in, then it's a good time to do it, but you don't actually have to have the entire setup on. Not much downside having the entire system on, other than the electricity that the amp is using.

[pstrisik]

I agree that it should be plugged into something (amp), but the amp or speakers don't really need to be running. If you have something else that your trying to burn in, then it's a good time to do it, but you don't actually have to have the entire setup on. Not much downside having the entire system on, other than the electricity that the amp is using.

Right - and since it's already running, I'll leave it. The amp is Class D, so doesn't draw much power.

[teedee55]

I'm running a fairly similar setup to yours -- a Premier 17LS2 into an MV60. Replacing the EH 6922 with the Genalex Gold Lion 6922 was a significant improvement, with richer bass and without the midrange hardness that you describe. I could live with the GLs. I have tried some Telefunken 7DJ8, and those were also nice/different from the GLs. Better still are Amperex Philips E88CC from Holland, but those are *ahem* a little pricey. I would try the GLs first.

[pstrisik]

I'm running a fairly similar setup to yours -- a Premier 17LS2 into an MV60. Replacing the EH 6922 with the Genalex Gold Lion 6922 was a significant improvement, with richer bass and without the midrange hardness that you describe. I could live with the GLs. I have tried some Telefunken 7DJ8, and those were also nice/different from the GLs. Better still are Amperex Philips E88CC from Holland, but those are *ahem* a little pricey. I would try the GLs first.

Amperex' were recommended as well, but I ruled them out for the same reason. I think I'm going to try the Matsushita's. They are cheaper than the GL's and I've not heard anything bad about them. GL's would probably be next if I'm not satisfied. Glad to hear that it was an improvement.

I'll probably have the new tubes before break in is finished and will put them in for the last 50 hours or so, but I will first listen with the EH's so I can compare to before break in with everything else being equal. Then I'll see what the new tubes will do!

The MV-60 is an EL34 based amp isn't it? That would make it different than the Pr11A which is 6550 based (though I'm running KT-120's in it). About the same power though. I've been curious about the EL34 sound. Supposed to do very well in the mid-range.

[Jim Treanor]

My well-broken-in 17LS with stock EH 6922's needs 15-30 minutes after turn-on to begin to get up to sonic speed. It sounds even better after about an hour of "on" time. If it has been off for any number of days (as yours may have been prior to your acquisition of it), my experience is that it's at least an hour--and that's absolute minimum--before everything locks in. I think it's safe to say that by about 400 hours total burn-in you'll hear it "sing" its magic, and whatever thinness you hear now should have disappeared by then. It's not at all a thin-sounding line stage--and I'm using it to drive a solid-state MF2500.

Keep us posted.

[pstrisik]

My well-broken-in 17LS with stock EH 6922's needs 15-30 minutes after turn-on to begin to get up to sonic speed. It sounds even better after about an hour of "on" time. If it has been off for any number of days (as yours may have been prior to your acquisition of it), my experience is that it's at least an hour--and that's absolute minimum--before everything locks in. I think it's safe to say that by about 400 hours total burn-in you'll hear it "sing" its magic, and whatever thinness you hear now should have disappeared by then. It's not at all a thin-sounding line stage--and I'm using it to drive a solid-state MF2500.

Keep us posted.

Thanks for the encouragement Jim. Sixty hours and counting! That's on top of the two hundred it came to me with. Another couple of weeks maybe a little less.

I ordered a quartet of the MATSUSHITA 7DJ8's but they are coming from Belgium! So it will take a week or so (I hope) to receive them and I want to get 50 hours or so on them before bringing the pre upstairs.

I tried to order from Upscale Audio, but he wanted $22 to ship those little buggers to me in Alaska from California. Wouldn't do priority mail for five bucks. So I found http://electols.com/ who had the same tubes for less than half the price. I had to pay $32 shipping on those, but the total with shipping was 40% less than Upscale's. I guess I'm venting. ok, enough.

[pstrisik]

139 hours and counting. Tonight (at 150 hours) I will put in the Matsushita/National tubes and run for 50 more hours and then bring upstairs. So looking like next weekend for play time

[admin]

I bet you can't wait! The anticipation must be a killer! I'll give you credit for dedication. I have to admit that I have never been able to give my equipment proper burn in time. I just always end up hooking it up and start spinning records/cd's. I think 50 hours of burn in time should be pretty good. I have found that after a few dozen hours, the changes are minimal (or perhaps I can not tell the difference).

[pstrisik]

I bet you can't wait! The anticipation must be a killer! I'll give you credit for dedication. I have to admit that I have never been able to give my equipment proper burn in time. I just always end up hooking it up and start spinning records/cd's. I think 50 hours of burn in time should be pretty good. I have found that after a few dozen hours, the changes are minimal (or perhaps I can not tell the difference).

I'm being patient, suprisingly! It helps that I am burning in with separate equipment in the basement, so I don't see it as part of the system yet. I'm also preoccupied in getting a tablet controller setup for the Cambridge Audio Streamer.

Brent Jesse (tube guy I bought from once suggested the 50 hour mark for tube burn in. Output tubes maybe less since they run hotter?

[pstrisik]

While I'm being patient , and while I'm not ready to post photos of my system in the gallery , I took a picture of my LS17 in the basement while it is breaking in (it's something anyway). DVD player looping Patricia Barber on the left => LS17 => a Ghent Studios B&O ICE Module based amp - 250wpc @ 8ohms => pair of LSA-1 monitors out of phase and facing each other (the computer speakers in the back are not involved).

.

[admin]

Looking good. I have to give you credit, I don't think I could resist grabbing that Premier 17 and running upstairs with it! Running it in the basement is actually probably a good idea as the ambient temperature is pretty consistent. Let us know how it sounds after the burn-in!

[pstrisik]

I think the patience comes because I had it in my system initially and didn't like the sound. So my expectations aren't all positive. I have some hope, but not expectation for improvement. I will be thrilled if it adds more to the sound quality.

It will be tomorrow after work that I bring it up. That will be after ~190 hours of break in downstairs (with 50 of those on the new tubes), and the reported 200 hours of use from the original owner. So about 400 hours total and 200 of consistent time in the last three weeks. I think this is as good of a chance that I can give it.

[antaresbluespirit]

I have some hearing sensitivities that make my preferences atypical. Sometimes, what should be great improvements end up feeling irritating to me. For example, I've not successfully moved to the Pr17LS I recently acquired. While I can perceive some improvement in staging, it sounds thinner and slightly harsher in the upper mids. The previous owner, who bought it new, says it only has about 200 hours on it. Maybe I need to let it break in more before I judge.

So, I've set things up in the basement with some extra equipment. The 17LS is playing a CD that is in a repeating loop (yes, with speakers connected ). Given the idea of time on and time off, I'll run it during the day and turn it off at night. That will typically give about 14 hours on and 10 hours off. If my calculations are correct, this will mean five weeks to reach 500 hours, but will probably bring it back up after 200.

On another note, I have the Electro-Harmonix 6922EH tubes that came with it from the original owner. These are likely the original tubes if it is true that he only put 200 hours on it. Based on recommendations from another forum, I'm looking at ordering some NOS MATSUSHITA 7DJ8 from upscale audio. Others that were recommended were the Genalex Gold Lion 6922.

Input and experiences welcome!

hI,

This subject is really sensitive for the CJ' lovers in general since the question of the lost of the "weight" of the sound is often questionned as the big side effect of any improvement we are expecting from the upgrade in benefit of microdynamic and soundstage accuracy and final tone balance effect is changing...

sometime the soundstage and transparency are better in the latest units but we often lost in "weight and matters" and we cannot gain in both area

There are lot of controversies between the "new CJsound" and "the old Cjsound"as well

At first we have to make sure that the tube are suitable to highlight the "character"of the preamp, not only the tone change but the "matters" of the music

I remember discussions open with a CJ specialist who owned a large range of preamp from PV series to the premier series and his conclusion was that the previous models were"more rock and roll" oriented ,the male voices and bass were better and the latest preamp series were consired better for both female voice and medium reproduction but lost in dynamic and weight of the music....he say all the new model are "triode" oriented in the medium and lost in the extreme...

So these considerations remain subjectives but controversies and debate are open since what ever the reamp generation is... 'it just sound right"

( for these reasons I have mixed a previous preamp series (PV8) linked with a more recent amp (MV60SE) and the issue gives "the best of the two world "

Regards

Raymond

[pstrisik]

Thanks for your input Raymond. Another way that some approach "the best of both worlds" is a mixture of solid state and tubes: hybrid amp or tube pre/SS amp, to preserve the bass control. Right now, I have SS pre and tube amp! It will be tube/tube when the 17LS comes up.

For me, it is not just the thinness, but the irritation/fatigue. I run a pair of good subs so I have good bass (that extends below 20hz). And I attained notable improvement with transparency, imaging and soundstage with a new DAC while experiencing less irritiation.

My subs are a great example (Rythmik F12's). They are servo and have damping setting switch (hi/med/lo). I now run them with high damping but initially preferred medium. I had to learn to like the more controlled, more defined, but - in a way - less weighty bass.

[antaresbluespirit]

Thanks for your input Raymond. Another way that some approach "the best of both worlds" is a mixture of solid state and tubes: hybrid amp or tube pre/SS amp, to preserve the bass control. Right now, I have SS pre and tube amp! It will be tube/tube when the 17LS comes up.

For me, it is not just the thinness, but the irritation/fatigue. I run a pair of good subs so I have good bass (that extends below 20hz). And I attained notable improvement with transparency, imaging and soundstage with a new DAC while experiencing less irritiation.

My subs are a great example (Rythmik F12's). They are servo and have damping setting switch (hi/med/lo). I now run them with high damping but initially preferred medium. I had to learn to like the more controlled, more defined, but - in a way - less weighty bass.

Hi Peter?

You are right regarding the mixture "preamp tube and solid state"..

I also had a CJ MF2250 linked with the PV8 as solid state and what a great medium it was in listening the blues !

I do not have any significant experience upon the DAC since I come from the "old school l" I am using a Studer A730 CD series which is le most "analogic" CD vintage system available in alternative to the "grand mother "turntable Thorens 124 II.

As a result my sytem is probably less transparent that yours but it suits to me as far as I will be able to find the "super PV8" like the PV9A (very rare on the market)

I confess that I like the CJ line including the phono stage and "button " on the front panel without any remote control.....

So, I noticed you own a pair of AR2ax and I have been looking for one pair available somewhere for a long time...what a great value for jazz reproduction they are,your are lucky !

regards

Raymond

(Blois France)

[pstrisik]

Bonjour Raymond..... we have some things in common. I have a Thorens TD145 MkII and I have a CJ2250A. I will certainly be listening to the 2250 with the 17LS as well, though I can't imagine I will like it better than the Pr11A!

I bought the AR2ax's locally on Craig's List. There have been a couple more for sale here as well. And this is Anchorage Alaska! If you really want some badly enough, you could probably find them in the states, but shipping would cost much more than the speakers themselves!

http://anchorage.craigslist.org/ele/3687514860.html

[pstrisik]

So I guess part of what helps me be patient is posting facebook like progress reports here!

Today is the day. It's still early morning here in Alaska. Before I bring the pre upstairs and have some play time, I have to go to Costco and have our tires changed over. We are supposed to get snow this weekend but it has been up to about 40 degrees (Fahrenheit) recently, so it shouldn't stick. I have to do two cars , so I'll set it up between car shuttling and let everything warm up. When I get back from doing the second car I should have an uninterrupted afternoon with the wife at work!
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