Helping A Friend Complete His System - Your Thoughts On The Best Used CJ Preamp Under $5,000.00

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Helping A Friend Complete His System - Your Thoughts On The Best Used CJ Preamp Under $5,000.00

Post by Highlander »

As the title notes, I am helping my best friend complete his audio system, something we have been building for some time. Since I received a great deal of helpful assistance here in finding the right CJ preamp for me, I thought it best to ask for your expertise again. He is obviously more well heeled than I am, and is looking for his best option under $5k (used). He is impressed with what he has heard of my Classic SE but, as this is likely his last system build (he is retiring early at the end of this year) he really want's to finish off his system with a great preamp and wants to move up the CJ lineup.

My friends system is built around a SET amp, and high sensitivity speakers. While he plays everything from rock to Gregorian Chants, much of his focus is on acoustic stuff, female singer songwriters, etc. Keys for him are a magical, lush and liquid mid range, great voice reproduction, and solid, well produced bass. My initial thoughts are possibly an ET3 SE based on it's reputation as a "baby GAT". But I've never heard one. The 17LS or 17LS2 (though those seem very hard to find) might also fit the bill based on what I recall from the reviews for it. More recent comments would also seem to support a CL5, though I'm not sure if that would still offer the classic midrange magic of the earlier models. Whichever way we end up going, he can afford high quality NOS tubes to maximize the performance of the preamp even further.

Any thoughts, expertise or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
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Re: Helping A Friend Complete His System - Your Thoughts On The Best Used CJ Preamp Under $5,000.00

Post by Big Dog RJ »

Hi mate,

after having owned several preamps from CJ, from entry level to top end stuff, for that price range, I highly recommend the Classic 2SE. For what it can deliver in performance and does extremely well, it beats a whole lot of high-end contenders out there. I got one unit home to try on my Quads and also tried several power amps such as, ARTsa, LP125sa, Audio Research GS150 & Ref75, also used the ET5 and ARC GSpre for comparison to determine the best synergy overall.

I found the Classic 2SE matched very well with the ARTsa, therefore as I have stated here before, you don't have to spend mega bucks for a high quality preamp. The ET5 and ET3SE are very fine preamps but if you can do without remote and balance, the Classic 2SE is simply superb.
The ET3SE was also very involving and gave a great sense of musicality as all CJ preamps do but there was something that the Classic 2SE captured in terms of nuances and depth that to me seemed to surpass the ET3 and perform at a point closer to the ET5. It sorts of sits inbetween the ET5 & GAT, I would think it is way beyond the ET3, since the SE version gives you better quality and convenience of remote, other than that I don't find the ET3 to be of any use.

If your friend is looking for older gear, perhaps premier 17LS or a CT5 would be a great choice but very hard to come across. For that matter a PV12 would be a superb match but they are also very hard to find. Therefore, looking at it from a point of view of simplicity, finesse, superb performance and outstanding value, for brand new- I would highly recommend the Classic 2SE, he won't be disappointed.
Audition one and check it out for yourself.

Cheers, RJ
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Re: Helping A Friend Complete His System - Your Thoughts On The Best Used CJ Preamp Under $5,000.00

Post by Highlander »

RJ, thanks again for your always valuable perspective. I erred in not mentioning that he does need a preamp with a remote. Otherwise the Classic 2SE would certainly fill the bill based on your experiences. It sounds like a 17LS or CT5 would be ideal for him. The good news is that he can afford to wait a while for one to appear for sale, as he is currently using the preamp of a mutual audiophile friend who is working in Europe until January.

By the way, I still love my Classic SE that I bought on your recommendation some time back.What a wonderful value.Thanks again.

JC
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Re: Helping A Friend Complete His System - Your Thoughts On The Best Used CJ Preamp Under $5,000.00

Post by admin »

RJ makes a really good argument for the Classic 2SE. It is also well within your budget. You can get this new with warranty for $2300 which is a great price for what you are getting.

If a remote is a complete deal breaker some other consideration may be a used ACT-2 (currently on audiogon for $4800) or ET3 SE ($3200 used).

Luckily you have a very reasonable budget to work with (especially if you are interested in the preowned market). Let us know what you decide.
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Re: Helping A Friend Complete His System - Your Thoughts On The Best Used CJ Preamp Under $5,000.00

Post by Big Dog RJ »

Yes, agreed if the remote is a deal breaker, then of course the Classic series preamps would not be an option.
BUT after listening to the Classic SE or 2SE you will realise at once what a superb preamp this is, and start to wonder what's the use of remote...

I know some people just need remote, again why? The other question is the Classic preamps will be at a "brand new price" and the others with remote will not. For under 5 grand, I guess it would have to be the ET3SE if he is looking for "new", of course on the used market for under 5 grand there are more options, it's a matter of finding a reliable seller.

You're most welcome JC, I knew straight away that you will find the Classic preamp to be of superb value with equally superb performance. In fact, to me the so called upgrade in sound from the Classic pre to the Classic 2 is very marginal, if at all hardly noticeable. The SE versions do add that extra bit of resolution but again very marginal, not a major step up compared to the GAT.

In all of CJ's preamps that I have used, starting with the PV8 all the way up to the ACT2 S2, I have really enjoyed the Classic preamp the most.
1. The solid feel you get from adjusting the controls
2. The superb resolution and detail it delivers for the value
3. Ease of use and simplicity

Reminds me of that wonderful PV12 resurrected to its glorious days, and the biggest factor- no remote means less electronics- means simpler circuit- overall less fuss to deal with in the long run. I have found that over the years (we're talking over 20) the preamps that didn't have remote function outlasted those that did, simply because the infrared circuitry gives way after long term usage. Diodes start to weaken and cause other issues down the line. This happened to my ACT2, until I had to spend again to get it upgraded and fixed more than 3 times... (whereas my older PV10AL just kept going).

Anyway, all the best to your friend in finding that particular preamp, I would also recommend the PV15 which also had remote function and was quite good but not as good as a Classic pre.
Cheers, RJ
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Re: Helping A Friend Complete His System - Your Thoughts On The Best Used CJ Preamp Under $5,000.00

Post by Highlander »

RJ,

Again I agree with all of your thoughts on this. The Classic series would be what I would clearly recommend to my friend. However, and I know he may regret me me making this public, but my friend has lost the use of his legs, due to a tragic accident, and is dependent on a remote control. I'm trying to deliver the best possible preamp sound to him, given the circumstances.

JC
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Re: Helping A Friend Complete His System - Your Thoughts On The Best Used CJ Preamp Under $5,000.00

Post by Big Dog RJ »

Oh! dear me. Sorry JC, I was not aware of that.
Ok, in that case it certainly makes sense to have remote in all possible components of the system. There are amplifiers that can also be turned on using remote to power them up, provided the mains is powered up all the time. In that case tubes may not be too favourable due to maintenance.

There was an excellent preamp that I used many years ago called the CJ PFR. It was a solid state remote controlled line stage preamp designed on CJ's premier standards. High quality parts with multiple transformers, and was meant to be left on at all times. After a while, this preamp would actually sound more like a tube pre. I am not sure of the cost now on the used market but it is worth a shot to see if he can get hold of one. It has a solid build and will last a life time.

I partnered this with a MF2300 power amp, driving the maggies MG3.5/R, it was a beautiful system back then. This is probably the only solid state preamp that I would recommend; I think either of these would also work fine for his budget:
ET3/SE, ET2, CT5, the older premier series (17LS, 16LS,) PV15, and the PFR (all have remote).

CJ is also affiliated to McCormack that is also very good, and made in the same factory. They have a line stage SS premap with remote as well, which is very nice when partnered with the right power amp such as CJ or McCormack amps. With other amps, the sound didn't have that transparency. So if he is considering good quality SS pre's, I would also recommend either the McCormack or PFR.

See how you go, and let us know what you find out there. Remember with older tube preamps, the caps are the main components to consider that weaken over a period of time, plus the tubes...
With SS you don't have to worry about tubes, just the caps because if the FET output devices were weak, basically there would be no sound. Quite simple to identify.

Hope this helps, and keep us posted. RJ
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Re: Helping A Friend Complete His System - Your Thoughts On The Best Used CJ Preamp Under $5,000.00

Post by Highlander »

RJ,

Thanks again, very much for your input, it is immensely appreciated, especially given your long experience with CJ products. I'm not too concerned about tubed electronics since I live quite close to my friend and am seldom absent from his listening room for more than a week or two and am more than happy to handle any maintenance. We have also managed to place his tubed power amplifier on a platform that allows him to access it quite easily from his wheelchair. Since he need only access it once to turn it on, and once again to turn it off, that is manageable. A preamplifier, however, needs to have volume adjustments made on a regular basis during listening sessions, as all know, so there the remote becomes a necessity.

We are currently pondering a number of your recommendations, including the 17LS/LS2, and 16LS/LS2, as well as the ET3/SE (though we are wondering if it might be a bit over the line of the point where CJ's newer models lost some of that magical golden midrange). Of course, waiting for availability of one of the Premier 16LS/LS2/17LS/LS2 preamps is always a bit dicey. Although the one time I was able to audition a 16LS2 extensively, in a system I was familiar with, really left me deeply impressed by it's performance, so it may well be worth the wait. Again, thankfully we have some time available to us to see what comes up for sale. Your recommendations have provided us with plenty to consider.

Thank you again, and I will keep everyone posted on what we end up acquiring for his system, and the results.

JC
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Re: Helping A Friend Complete His System - Your Thoughts On The Best Used CJ Preamp Under $5,000.00

Post by Big Dog RJ »

You're most welcome JC. I am glad I was able to contribute with some helpful thoughts.

Ah, that golden glow CJ preamps were known for is spot on. Those memorable days, the PV series and earlier premier series definitely had that "caramel affect" to its signature sound, and that is probably what got me transfixed on CJ in the first place. I remember first listening to the MV50 and a PV8 on Paradigm speakers, listening to Tracy Chapman's album 'Fast Car' oh boy was it full of caramel flavours, real sweet sound!

Actually considering this is not a bad thing, newer CJ products do not have much of that caramel flavour, rather they have focused efforts on the critical design elements of each component, enabling simpler circuits, utilising better quality parts, and by doing so, they have managed to address music closer to the original source of the recording. This is the main reason why nowadays CJ products are simpler circuits in all gain stages of their design and deliver more of the music and less of the "caramel" affect.

However, they have not forgotten by any means to respond to that wonderful balance of bass, glorious transparent midrange and extended airy highs- have remained faithful to date in all their current designs. This also contributes to the very high level of musicality that CJ offers compared to the rest. Audio Research, VTL, Manley, McIntosh, Pass Labs etc., are all superb sounding instruments but they don't come close to CJ's level of musicality. They may have better control in the bass, more extended highs and greater mid-bass slam but again lack that real total feel of musicalness (even if that's a word...) compared to listening to CJ gear for endless hours with zero fatigue.

Therefore, in all my travels and system configs that I have come across, when I have heard a system and it has grabbed my attention, low and behold, there is a CJ component in the chain. Mostly a preamp or a phono preamp. Since this is the front end it is critical to get that musicality factor right to be able to enjoy the music and not have a headache. The power amplifier is by far the most critical component of any system, since it has to be able to control the speakers and deliver the necessary current/voltage to the speakers. Finally with a CJ preamp, your system will just sing for whatever CJ pre you choose. Therefore, I am quite confident for under 5 grand he will be able to find that special CJ pre eventually.

By the way, just a quick news flash- I was just told by my trusted dealer mate that the Classic 2 preamp series is no longer in production. There are only a handful of units left in North America with a few dealers and that's the final run. Hence, those looking for the most entry level CJ pre will have to setlle for the ET3 series.

It's a bit discouraging, especailly when the Classic was just one work of "classic".
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Re: Helping A Friend Complete His System - Your Thoughts On The Best Used CJ Preamp Under $5,000.00

Post by admin »

I'm going to chime in here with a little crazy idea. I've been fooling around with an Arduino control board for some home lighting projects recently and there are a lot of things these little devices can do. They are relatively inexpensive and an external volume knob control system with a stepper motor and remote control could probably be built for less than $30.

Something like this: https://www.waste.org/~knobs/arduino_re ... ntrol.html

I know it's a little crazy, but it would open up a lot of options in terms of choosing gear. Again, the Arduino is pretty simple to work with and there are tons of online tutorials and a very active community to help with any issues that may arise. In the example I posted, I think the most difficult part of the project would be to make the housing. But certainly doable as a weekend project.
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Re: Helping A Friend Complete His System - Your Thoughts On The Best Used CJ Preamp Under $5,000.00

Post by Highlander »

RJ,

Just left you a PM. Thanks.

JC
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Re: Helping A Friend Complete His System - Your Thoughts On The Best Used CJ Preamp Under $5,000.00

Post by Big Dog RJ »

Hey JC, just wanted to check whether your buddy finally decided on which preamp to go for?

I know he wanted to take his time but it looks like I'm quite excited to know as well! It's always exciting to know and learn about cj products, they have always fascinated me since their inception...
cheers mate, RJ
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Re: Helping A Friend Complete His System - Your Thoughts On The Best Used CJ Preamp Under $5,000.00

Post by Highlander »

RJ,

I understand the excitement surrounding these great CJ preamps, I've been very eager to check out what he purchases too. My friend had narrowed it down to either a CT5 or an Act-2. I was expecting to hear his decision last night based on earlier conversations. Unfortunately, I got word a just a bit ago that he just suffered a serious, and completely unexpected financial setback that will completely impact any expenditures for a while.

Thanks especially to you, and to everyone else who contributed with recommendations.He and I both greatly appreciate the input. Here's hoping that he can revisit things down the road and acquire one of these fine pieces of gear.

JC
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Re: Helping A Friend Complete His System - Your Thoughts On The Best Used CJ Preamp Under $5,000.00

Post by Big Dog RJ »

oh ok, understand that these things do happen. Afterall, survival and family are far more important than anything else. I am sure sometime when ready he could venture back into the idea of a high quality preamp.

Will be in touch, cheers
RJ
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Re: Helping A Friend Complete His System - Your Thoughts On The Best Used CJ Preamp Under $5,000.00

Post by Copper »

PV9 - $900 used
Premier 4 - $1600 used

$2500 total.
Remainder for software.
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